EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

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Robinson.kevin
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Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2021 10:09 pm

EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by Robinson.kevin » Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:41 am

Basically what I am wondering is... Is there a way to EQ individual drums?

I notice I'd like to EQ the Kick or Cymbals differently. Is there a way to do so with each sound or is there a way to have multiple USB outputs as to where I could do so at a mixer?

condordontsurf
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Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:59 am

Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by condordontsurf » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:43 am

you would have to use midi in a DAW to achieve this.

Richard
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Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by Richard » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:42 am

Myself and Yann were talking about implementing this feature the other day. Instead of Aerodrums configuring the audio device to output a single stereo channel we would configure it to output multiple stereo channels, e.g. one for each drum. That would allow live mixing the drums outside of Aerodrums which is potentially useful for people gigging using Aerodrums. We will probably put together an experimental build in the near future to try this out so we will let you know if we're looking for testers.

Of course, like condordontsurf mentioned, you could also go the MIDI route with this but it wouldn't be possible to use the Aerodrums samples in that case.

Wolfgang
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Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by Wolfgang » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:30 pm

I was contacting Yann for this recently.
Richard wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:42 am
we would configure it to output multiple stereo channels, e.g. one for each drum.
I don’t think you need stereo channels for this and this might even interfere with the panning settings on the mixer. Like in a real mike-setup, 8 mono channels should be enough, kick/snare/hi-hat/3 toms/2 overheads. And you would need that much outputs on your sound-card!

There are in fact two different cases with this subject. If it’s just about EQ-ing separately the elements, this could theoretically be done inside Aerodrums, but might take too much processing for low spec machines. But on the other side they could just not use this feature.

Anyway EQ-ing is important for playing live, no room sounds the same. And I only have a volume button on my 200W active speaker. Actually I’m using Jackrouter as audio-device in Aerodrums, sending the output into Vsthost where the signal goes through a volume controller- and an equalizer vst, and I can control everything in real-time with my MIDI controller keyboard. But normally when I have a well sounding kick, the toms would resonate to much, what forces me to use only very dry sounding toms. Separate EQ-ing would help a lot.

The second case is when you come to a gig where there is a PA and a mixer and the sound-engineer asks you how many outputs you have. This is what happened to me twice the last months and is why I was contacting Yann. And they really prefer having the outputs separated. This is why the more expensive electronic-drums do have them.

I don’t think that multiple USB outputs would work well with Windows. But with ASIO multiple physical input and output channels of the hardware can be accessed over one single device. With my Behringer UMC1820 sound-card I have 10 analog outputs. By using Reaper I already realized a setup where I could send the instruments from a vsti separately to different tracks, and from there to the different outputs.

In any case, for a common mike-setup you need a sound-card with at least 8 outputs. For a price of at least 200€. I think not a lot of people will be concerned by this.

But offering the same on virtual channels might be a better solution. Supporting devices like Rearoute for Windows or Jackrouter for Windows/MAC/Linux would allow a (power) user to do himself and outside of Aerodrums the routing he needs. It would be also possible for him to send the elements to different tracks in his DAW, doing EQ-ing and mixing and sending the mix into a simple stereo sound-card.

By the way I’m asking myself if you couldn’t re-use the Midi maps interface of Aerodrums for an output channel interface, by replacing the maps-list with a kits-list in the first screen and in the second the Midi notes with output channels.

But after you would have to change the latency screen, because even if actually you can chose your device, you cannot chose the channels to be used. The ASIO setup in Aerodrums is different than all other ASIO compatible software I know.

Wolfgang
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Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:36 am

Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by Wolfgang » Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:40 pm

My last post may require a bit more explanation. I said that the ASIO configuration in Aerodrums which is not at all standard, because all the programs I know that support ASIO (about ten) work in this way (here it's Reaper):

I choose the audio system
ASIO-setup-1.jpg
ASIO-setup-1.jpg (20.59 KiB) Viewed 5464 times

I choose my ASIO driver
ASIO-setup-2.jpg
ASIO-setup-2.jpg (33.72 KiB) Viewed 5464 times

I can choose the input/output channels supported by the driver.
ASIO-setup-4.jpg
ASIO-setup-4.jpg (20.39 KiB) Viewed 5464 times

In Aerodrums there is no separate listing of WASAPI / ASIO drivers (which is not really a problem), but above all you cannot choose the output channels.
Last edited by Wolfgang on Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Wolfgang
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Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by Wolfgang » Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:46 pm

To record MIDI on the same computer, and even multi-channel MIDI, Aerodrums already relies on the use of a virtual MIDI cable like LoopBe. Why not do the same with audio? Rearoute and Jack are actually virtual audio cables presented to an application as a sound device.

JackInstall-16.jpg
JackInstall-16.jpg (168.53 KiB) Viewed 5464 times
In this example I have chosen JackRouter as the audio device in Aerodrums, but unfortunately no further settings, such as which channels to use, are available. Once activated, we see Aerodrums appear with 2 channels in the Qjackctl Graph. "System capture" corresponds to the inputs and "system playback" to the outputs of my sound card. All routing is done visually. Here I connected Aerodrums to 2 inputs of Reaper to be mixed and recorded with inputs 1&2 of my soundcard and output of Reaper to output 1&2 of my card. At the same time I connected Aerodrums to outputs 9&10 for direct monitoring. If Aerodrums could provide as many channels as elements (max. 16) it will already be a solution, both for live multitrack recording into a DAW or for sending to multiple outputs of our sound-cards. And no need anymore to import WAV files for multitrack recording. A big step forward.

johnnyM1984
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Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by johnnyM1984 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:30 pm

Hi everyone! If anyone is interested, please let me bring my 5 cents.

I think applying EQ inside Aerodrums is a very nice idea, its easy to implement. You can find EQ algorythms that would use maximum parallelizm out of modern PCs. But frankly speaking, adding a multitrack ASIO output brings Aerodrums into DAW category, for stable work it must use something more stable and predictable than portaudio library. Most users wont benefit from it, but will definately use and like EQ on each drum. Beside EQ, compression and reverb can be also applied on a per-element sound, that would bring much more sound design capabilities to Aerodrums.

condordontsurf
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Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:59 am

Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by condordontsurf » Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:42 pm

Now that I have Johnnys new camera, I have been experimenting with routing. I am using loopy pro to loop my drum playing, you can then add compressor etc. I know this is not the live routing that was asked about. Stability with all these programs is always an issue.

Wolfgang
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:36 am

Re: EQ on seperate drums or multiple outputs to a mixer?!?!?

Post by Wolfgang » Sun Feb 20, 2022 11:15 pm

Hi Evgeny,
Sorry for not sharing your opinion, but let me explain my thoughts.
“I think applying EQ inside Aerodrums is a very nice idea, its easy to implement.”
Yes, it would be nice, and you are certainly right about finding and implementing open EQ algorithms, but I think this would require a lot of programming to be integrated into the GUI, and I really don’t see how all this could easily be managed just with our drum sticks. I already regret that we can't see and mix the volume of all the elements of one kit together on one page, I don't even imagine how it would be with an equalizer for each element. I think this should/can only be done outside of Aerodrums GUI.
“adding a multi-track ASIO output brings Aerodrums into DAW category”
“Most users wont benefit from it”
No, it will bring Aerodrums into the professional category. It’s the same with e-drums from 1000€ upwards. They all have multiples outputs, despite most users will never use them. Nevertheless all manufacturers offer them for their more expensive kits, because an e-drum that can be used professionally just needs it. There are certainly a lot of people who are using Aerodrums just for having fun and there is nothing wrong with it, but anyone who uses Aerodrums for live playing will quickly find out that there is another even more important thing sorely missing: to be able to control Aerodrums by hardware (other than a mouse) in real-time. Every electric/electronic instrument has at least an easy accessible volume button. For live playing this is essential. Professional e-drums do even have group faders, here from the e-drums I’m playing once a week.

td-30_FADERS.jpg
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Some time ago I was speaking with Yann about this and I told him that I would really like if I could control my Aerodrums by MIDI with my MIDI controller-surface.
Now, beside changing the Aerodrums kits by MIDI commands, everything else (hardware faders, separate equalizing, sending to multiples outputs) and a lot of more I could do externally of Aerodrums just with audio routing. And I could control all “materially” with my MIDI controller-surface. This is primary all I would expect from a “professional” e-drum kit.
But being able to change the Aerodrums kits by MIDI commands (by pressing a button like I can do with each e-drum) would still be another nice feature for live playing.

Finally it’s up to Aerodrums to decide in which category they want to play. (I will be happy eatherway, because I’ve learned to manage otherwise, but by making compromises.)
“must use something more stable and predictable than portaudio library”
Maybe I don’t have your knowledge about system-internals, but I can speak about what I had in my hands. I’m using Jack audio for Windows since the beginning of the Covid pandemic, in the beginning it was just for being able to do online rehearsals with Aerodrums and Jamulus and in 2 years I never had a crash whilst playing. Today I’m this confident that I use it for my gigs. It’s true, there had been problems in the past and I was forced to use a downgraded version for months, but the last version “jack2-win64-v1.9.20” runs fine. Also still 2 years ago it was quite complicated to install Jack for Windows, but nowadays it’s very easy. And with a Mac portaudio isn’t used, the JackRouter for OS X is a CoreAudio “user space” driver that allows any OS X CoreAudio application to become a Jack client.


I was primary reacting to this thread because of Richard’s idea:
Richard wrote:
we would configure it to output multiple stereo channels, e.g. one for each drum.

I think it would be more usable to stick with the manner like it’s done with e-drums.

This is the back of the Roland TD-30 I’m playing:

td-30_OUTS.jpg
td-30_OUTS.jpg (47.61 KiB) Viewed 5331 times

8 direct-outputs (4 mono and 2 stereo) and 2 master outs, and I think I’ve never seen more.
So just 10 ports/sockets would be enough.

If compatible with the internal design of Aerodrums, but this I don’t know, the for me most versatile and maybe (I’m not a programmer) most easy to implement solution for all this would be if Jack audio could be natively supported by Aerodrums as an alternative sound-system for Windows and Mac, so we could choose between Wasapi/Asio/Jack pour Windows, and Coreaudio/Jack pour Mac. And by choosing Jack we would automatically have 10 sockets for connections (by taking the example from the TD-30). But again, I don’t know if it’s realizable, I’m not a coder.

This is what they say on their website about Jack integration (I only understand half of it):
Your app must be callback-based. This means that you should not block on writes or reads from a PCM device; rather, you should have your app be “driven” by a function that gets called at regular intervals. This is a design decision.
Note that code written for any callback API can generally be ported to any other callback API fairly easily. Code that is written around a “blocking I/O” model generally needs to completely redesigned to be used in any kind of callback API.

This might give an idea if Jack integration in Aerodrums would be easily possible.

There is more and more music software for Windows having integrated Jack natively, the last one I know is Jamulus. There’s the list from jackaudio.org:

Ardour
Bitwig Studio
Carla Plugin Host
Foo YC20
Harisson MixBus
LMMS (starting from v1.3)
MuseScore
Radium
Zrythm

The list of all applications supporting Jack natively, all operating systems combined is much much longer:
https://jackaudio.org/applications/

And Jack works also with MIDI. This could replace a virtual MIDI cable like LoopBe for applications supporting Jack natively.

Some links I found:

Using JACK on Windows
https://jackaudio.org/faq/jack_on_windows.html

Jack OS X
https://resumebuilderpro.com/resume-examples/jackosx

How do I make an application use JACK?
https://jackaudio.org/faq/making_a_jack_app.html

API
https://jackaudio.org/api/


Before programming features probably only used by a hand-full of people, wouldn’t it be more wise to give them the possibility and teach them how they could do it externally, than making Aerodrums more and more overcharged and complicated to use for all the others who would never use those features.

Just my 2 cents

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