Aerodrums 2

Richard
Posts: 1023
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:45 am

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by Richard » Wed May 31, 2023 4:00 pm

This feels like a missed opportunity to add another reflective location on the stick. Although tracking circles is already difficult enough and I can see why you might not want to.

But having the angle of the stick would potentially allow one to play the top of the hihats and rim shots (properly).
We had a really good prototype of a stick that tracked orientation but we decided against it in the end. For one thing the sticks looked quite quirky. It's something that we could possibly bring back in the future without changing the Aerodrums 2 hardware.
Uh oh. That means no drumstick menu either? I have to put my sticks down to start a song? I can't say I like that.
There won't be a user interface in Aerodrums 2 that can only be controlled by the drum sticks like there is in Aerodrums 1. Right now we have support for various "gestures" you can make with the sticks to trigger certain events like skip to the next or previous song. But we haven't ruled out adding the ability to control most of the app interface with the sticks.
When I use a 'gps' app I always use top down. I prefer that mode regardless of what other information is in the other view.
I guess the difference with a GPS app is that you don't care how high your car is off the ground so 2D is sufficient. But seeing your drum sticks in 3D really does help with getting your bearings.
This is great to hear. Have you heard of Rocksmith? One of the nice features it has is riff repeater which is just a mechanism by which to loop a section and slow it down (pitch intact). If you don't have this feature yet, consider adding it.
Yes, Rocksmith is very well done. In the Aerodrums 2 app you do have the ability to mark the start and end points of a song, loop it, and speed it up or slow it down (though it does not preserve pitch).
Let me rephrase the question. Does the current to the LEDs vary based on how much background IR the camera sees? Or maybe the current is the same, but the strobe time varies? I'm just concerned about being bathed in infrared light at maximum intensity when it's not necessary for the environment. Ideally the required intensity would be a function of my pupil diameter, however unachievable that is.
No, the rate at which IR is emitted and its intensity do not vary. This is important to be able to reconstruct the 3D position of markers reliably in different lighting conditions.
That's gonna be a big battery for any length of time. A 12V 18650 lithium pack is 3 or 4 cells and 2Ah. That's good for 24 minutes (ideally). For a solid hour you'd need 12 18650 cells. That's a big pack. For a 3 hour run time you need a car battery. That means taking this thing camping is a no. I guess I'll be holding on to my Aerodrums 1, I think.
We have not worked on optimizing power consumption yet. You can operate a laptop for more than 3h without using a car battery so we have no reason to believe we couldn't get a run time over 3h with a battery the size of a laptop's (instead of a car's). We will look at power optimization closely before going into production.
Speaking of 60W and given that there doesn't appear to be fan cooling, how hot does the enclosure get? It sounds like it's going to be hot enough to burn.
The enclosure has well designed ventilation. I have never noticed it getting hot.
The last thing I want to ask is if certain improvements will make it back to Aerodrums 1. Particularly that "advanced hihat model" that I suggested some time ago. I'd like to try it now if it works...
Yes it's very possible that some improvements will make their way back to Aerodrums 1 but probably not before Aerodrums 2 is released. Things like the hi-hat model were developed using Aerodrums 2 itself so they would not be trivial features to add back to Aerodrums 1.

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Wed May 31, 2023 4:29 pm

newbreednet wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 am
It seems that there are at least two ways of connecting Aerodrums 2 to a PA. One would be to use a 3.5mm aux audio cable, this would provide a stereo output to the PA mixer, where the level could be controlled with a fader on the mixer. Perhaps the mobile/tablet app can be used to set individual drum levels (make kick/snare louder, etc) and then once this is "saved" to the Aerodrums 2 sensor, it will remember these levels for future performances (without the need for the app)?
I'm not an expert on this, but the way I've seen drum mics connected to IEM rigs allows individual band members to vary the amount of what drums or cymbals they want in their mix. Well perhaps not that precise with an acoustic kit, but that's the idea.
I think it's been mentioned elsewhere that USB provides no power, the power brick or perhaps some sort of power bank is required.
Hmm. That means connecting the kind of accessories I had in mind would be more difficult. And it doesn't explain the 60W power consumption.
Re: a headphone jam without a DAW,
No I mean like this:

Aerodrums Headphone Jam - Pornograffitti - Nuno
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln7-U2I0fb0

Aerodrums is unique in the aspect that it's silent. So a headphone jam where everyone plugs their instruments into a mixer, and monitors with headphones. No amps. You either need a mixer device (JamHub, Roland HS5, or TC Helicon Blender) or a computer, a DAW and an interface with enough inputs.

Richard should really do some drum covers. There's not enough good quality, complete song, and accurate aerodrums drum covers on youtube.

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Wed May 31, 2023 4:32 pm

newbreednet wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 12:02 pm
There don't appear to be any physical controls on the Aerodrums 2 so how do you control the headphone and aux volume without an app? Because it doesn't seem like Aerodrums 2 can work entirely standalone...
If you look on the kickstarter page, keep going down the page until you get to the picture section for "How Aerodrums 2 works", the picture for "Step 2" of the guide seems to show a couple of buttons on the bottom front of Aerodrums 2. I'm sure in time we'll find out what they are for :)
*facepalm* I can't believe I missed that. It also looks like there may an indicator LED. I didn't notice it being on in any of the other photos.

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Wed May 31, 2023 4:51 pm

newbreednet wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 12:14 pm
InTheWorks wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:12 am

Is the distance between the camera and the drum throne the same for Aerodrums 2 as it is for Aerodrums 1? It would be nice if it was closer.
It was confirmed on the Facebook group that Aerodrums 2 will place its laser dots (where your feet go) approximately 1.2m away from the stand. ;)
Does anyone know what the equivalent distance is for Aerodrums 1? My IR camera is probably is close 1.2m too. I can't check with the PS3 regular camera.

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Wed May 31, 2023 6:37 pm

Richard wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:00 pm
We had a really good prototype of a stick that tracked orientation but we decided against it in the end. For one thing the sticks looked quite quirky. It's something that we could possibly bring back in the future without changing the Aerodrums 2 hardware.
Did you ever try a doughnut shaped reflector that sat somewhere on the shaft of the stick. I'm thinking of a thick rubber o-ring.
There won't be a user interface in Aerodrums 2 that can only be controlled by the drum sticks like there is in Aerodrums 1. Right now we have support for various "gestures" you can make with the sticks to trigger certain events like skip to the next or previous song. But we haven't ruled out adding the ability to control most of the app interface with the sticks.
This sounds cool. Though you'd probably want to be able to turn it off for 'performances'.
I guess the difference with a GPS app is that you don't care how high your car is off the ground so 2D is sufficient. But seeing your drum sticks in 3D really does help with getting your bearings.
I'm not convinced, but I guess I'll wait and see.
Yes, Rocksmith is very well done. In the Aerodrums 2 app you do have the ability to mark the start and end points of a song, loop it, and speed it up or slow it down (though it does not preserve pitch).
Bummer. If it doesn't preserve pitch, it's hard to listen to.

No, the rate at which IR is emitted and its intensity do not vary. This is important to be able to reconstruct the 3D position of markers reliably in different lighting conditions.
It should be possible to get an idea of background IR and adjust the exposure and lighting for the conditions. But if Aerodrums doesn't do it, Aerodrums doesn't do it.

In bright conditions I'm less concerned. However, in low lighting I cringe at the thought of outdoor IR levels getting through my dilated pupils. Even if IEC 62471 considers it safe. And I presume Aerodrums 2 falls under the except group for IEC 62471? It's not mentioned on the kickstarter page.
We have not worked on optimizing power consumption yet. You can operate a laptop for more than 3h without using a car battery so we have no reason to believe we couldn't get a run time over 3h with a battery the size of a laptop's (instead of a car's). We will look at power optimization closely before going into production.
Excellent.
The enclosure has well designed ventilation. I have never noticed it getting hot.
If I had to guess Aerodrums 2 consumes 15W without optimization. Just based on what I know about the parts being used. And it's hard to passively cool more than that.

15W is 1/4 of 60W. Is 60W the spec on the power brick?

At 15W at 68Wh laptop battery would last 4 hours. That's a step in the right direction.
Yes it's very possible that some improvements will make their way back to Aerodrums 1 but probably not before Aerodrums 2 is released. Things like the hi-hat model were developed using Aerodrums 2 itself so they would not be trivial features to add back to Aerodrums 1.
Understood.

If it's not too late, it would be nice if the usb-c connector could supply a little bit of power. Even 100mA would be enough. This would allow a usb midi pedal interface to be developed that could be plug and play with Aerodrums 2.

newbreednet
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by newbreednet » Wed May 31, 2023 9:47 pm

InTheWorks wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 4:29 pm
I'm not an expert on this, but the way I've seen drum mics connected to IEM rigs allows individual band members to vary the amount of what drums or cymbals they want in their mix. Well perhaps not that precise with an acoustic kit, but that's the idea.
To get the equivalent of something like the "8 XLR outputs" you mention, Aerodrums 2 would likely need to be connected to a DAW, and then the drum sampler software - for example, Kontakt - would need to be directed to split into distinct output channels for each kit piece - this can be done in the DAW so you have track 1 kick, track 2 snare, track 3 rack tom etc etc, and then these channels can be bussed to the (analog) output stages of the DAW's audio interface as required.
Hmm. That means connecting the kind of accessories I had in mind would be more difficult. And it doesn't explain the 60W power consumption.
I'm also looking forward to hearing more about the power requirements of Aerodrums 2.
a headphone jam where everyone plugs their instruments into a mixer, and monitors with headphones. No amps. You either need a mixer device (JamHub, Roland HS5, or TC Helicon Blender) or a computer, a DAW and an interface with enough inputs.
So without first feeding the Aerodrums 2 through a DAW as described previously, I'm guessing the best that Aerodrums 2 can do "on it's own" is provide a stereo-out mix to go into one of these jam-session mixer devices, which I think is fair given the scope of what Aerodrums 2 as a stand-alone product is.

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:27 am

newbreednet wrote:
Wed May 31, 2023 9:47 pm
To get the equivalent of something like the "8 XLR outputs" you mention, Aerodrums 2 would likely need to be connected to a DAW, and then the drum sampler software - for example, Kontakt - would need to be directed to split into distinct output channels for each kit piece - this can be done in the DAW so you have track 1 kick, track 2 snare, track 3 rack tom etc etc, and then these channels can be bussed to the (analog) output stages of the DAW's audio interface as required.
I understand how one might do that with a laptop, a usb multichannel interface, and a DAW. I just think that's not practical for 'stage' use. The kickstarter says:
For example, the ability to output a separate audio channel for each drum via USB for stage mixing.
Note that they say audio channel, not midi channel.

And that's really confusing. As I said I don't know of any products that go USB to XLR for stage mixing. They don't mention XLR, but I don't see how else to do it.

The question is how does "usb audio channels" turn into "stage mixing". Enquiring minds want to know.

It's highly likely that Aerodrums 2 looks like a usb sound card so that when you plug it into a usb host (ie. computer), you can record multichannel audio (probably midi as well). This is useful, but I don't see how you would use it on stage.

If Aerodrums 2 usb could act as a usb host, then you could skip the DAW and output directly using a usb multichannel interface which would be a few less pieces in the chain, but the connection to Aerodrums 2 is usb-c which is not a robust locking connector. In other words, I don't see this unlikely idea as 'stage' ready anyway.

newbreednet
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by newbreednet » Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:37 am

For example, the ability to output a separate audio channel for each drum via USB for stage mixing.
Note that they say audio channel, not midi channel.

And that's really confusing. As I said I don't know of any products that go USB to XLR for stage mixing. They don't mention XLR, but I don't see how else to do it.

The question is how does "usb audio channels" turn into "stage mixing". Enquiring minds want to know.

It's highly likely that Aerodrums 2 looks like a usb sound card so that when you plug it into a usb host (ie. computer), you can record multichannel audio (probably midi as well). This is useful, but I don't see how you would use it on stage.

If Aerodrums 2 usb could act as a usb host, then you could skip the DAW and output directly using a usb multichannel interface which would be a few less pieces in the chain, but the connection to Aerodrums 2 is usb-c which is not a robust locking connector. In other words, I don't see this unlikely idea as 'stage' ready anyway.
Wow, I hadn't noticed the specific wording in the kickstarter! Indeed a good question.

Further studying the "tech specs" section of the kickstarter: it explicity says, "USB-C for MIDI and multi channel audio".

Hmmmmm :)

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:23 pm

With regards to usb audio mixing, there's clocking issues too. I'm curious how Aerodrums 2 handles them. The usb clock will be different than Aerodrums 2's audio clock. There are ways to handle this, but mixing digital audio without a single master clock is generally a pain.

InTheWorks
Posts: 80
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 11:59 pm

Re: Aerodrums 2

Post by InTheWorks » Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:20 pm

Richard, the kickstarter page says:
For example, the ability to output a separate audio channel for each drum via USB for stage mixing.
I've spent some time looking at this and I haven't found any equipment that will take multichannel usb input. Aside from a computer that outputs to a usb audio interface. That sounds much less than ideal. Is this what you had in mind?

I haven't seen any mixing boards (granted I don't know exactly what I'm looking for) that would interface with usb like that. It would be straightforward to make a product like that, but outside of Aerodrums 2, I don't see any applications. Aerodrums 2 has to be the first drum product with multichannel usb audio.

For stage use all the edrum stuff I've looked at only has stereo outputs. So why use that very curious phrasing of "via USB for stage mixing"?

Can you shed some light on this?

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