There is no rebound.

[InTheWorks]

Aerodrums officially uses "apparent lack of rebound" to describe air drumming. This is misleading. There is no rebound. None at all.

Rebound describes how much the stick bounces after striking a surface. There is zero bounce from the palm. What they should say is "There is no rebound, but you don't need any".

With high rebound surfaces, such as a gum rubber practice pad, you have to get your hand out of the way of the stick fast (ie. follow the stick). The stick rises back to the top of the stroke entirely from the energy of rebound.

With lower rebound surfaces, the stick doesn't rise all by itself as well. If you've become accustomed to the fast stick return from high rebound, your wrist will do extra work to carry some of the stick weight. If you're not used to this, you have to practice more on these low rebound surfaces.

I think this is primarily what "pad hands" refers to.

The RTOM moongel workout pad has more rebound than the palm of the hand. It's not much and the stick doesn't bounce up very high. So it's work to lift the stick the rest of the way. And that's what makes it a workout.

The crucial difference with zero rebound is that the wrist has to carry the weight of the stick up all the way up. Starting from when the stick is horizontal where it 'weighs' the most. This is why the Aerodrums supplied sticks are lightweight. Using your favourite pair of sticks can be counterproductive until you've built up the muscles/tendons for that extra weight.

I've been struggling to understand why it's so hard to produce fast air drum strokes. So I've been recently studying the 'rebound rebuttal' video and the moving gifs on the kickstarter page. Nowhere do they come out and say that there is zero rebound. It's implied that the "apparent lack of rebound" is addressed by the butt of the stick contacting the fleshy part of the palm.

The only way the stick rises is if some motion of the wrist moves the stick back up. I think it's important to understand that because the way things from Aerodrums are worded, you might (like me) be thinking that you're doing something wrong when there is zero rebound. It's not you. There is no rebound.

Now this should be good for technique. It's not unlike playing on a pillow.

But there is something else amiss. I can play fast (enough) doubles on a pillow or blanket. These are zero rebound surfaces too, but the difference is that the impact happens at the tip of the stick. This has the effect of stabilising the stick (the energy is absorbed) in my loose grip. In the air, I find I have to control the stick's lateral movement and that tightens my grip. And by grip, I don't mean how tight the fulcrum is holding the stick. I'm talking about the rest of the hand behind the fulcrum. This different way of restraining the stick feels awkward and uncoordinated which explains the lack of ability. Or rather why it doesn't just transfer.

I use a middle finger fulcrum in a palm down grip (not as pronated as german) which may be part of the problem. If I switch to index finger fulcrum, the hand behind the fulcrum has more fingers on the stick. I guess it stabilises it better. However, index finger fulcrum feels very awkward. I don't normally use it. So it's not any faster for me.

The testing I did above was with a 5A hickory stick. It amplifies the issues compared to Aerodrums sticks. For comparison, my 5A hickory stick weighs 56g, my 5A maple stick weighs 45g and my Aerodrums stick weighs 42g. They are roughly all the same overall length and roughly the same weight distribution (ie. balance point).

The obvious solution is to dedicate some time to practising these air drum strokes specifically for Aerodrums use. In my case, it doesn't transfer back to the kit.

I thought I would post this to help anyone with similar struggles zero in on the issues. It definitely takes more physical training to play Aerodrums if you don't regularly practise on low rebound surfaces. And maybe some additional work if you don't already use the index finger fulcrum.

I should mention that you can 'fake' some rebound by choking up on the stick. Moving the fulcrum towards the tip of the stick biases the weight so that the butt of the stick will fall when the stick is horizontal. But you have to move ridiculously close to the tip of the stick for that to work. Adding enough weight to the butt of the stick, to move the centre of mass behind the fulcrum, feels better. However, it's more work for the fingers. I'm not saying this is practical and it's not technically rebound.

[Richard]

Thanks a lot for this post. I think we got stuck talking about "rebound" in the past because everyone seemed to refer to it as such. I think the truth is that people's main concern with air drumming is less about rebound and more about the lack of feeling like you're hitting something. Recently we've made a better attempt at clarifying this. For example, the Kickstarter post lists 5 benefits of the "air stroke", none of which is related to rebound.

To be honest the exploration of sticking technique in the Kickstarter post is probably overkill. In reality most sticking patterns are just singles and doubles. I use the basic air stroke to play singles and for doubles I sneak in the extra hit as I lift the stick back up with the wrist. Personally I refer to this as 2-stroke Moeller. To play continuously with one hand (e.g. one-handed 16ths on the hi-hat) I just chain these doubles together.

It would probably be a lot more beneficial if we made a tutorial on these and only these ideas. The main thing we want to convey is that, with the right technique, air drumming can feel a lot more satisfying than most drummers think. And it is possible to play a lot faster and cleaner than most think. With sufficient practice in the air, of course.

By the way, in case people haven't seen the Kickstarter post, here is the link:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ae ... ts/3927293

[InTheWorks]

To be honest the exploration of sticking technique in the Kickstarter post is probably overkill.

I hadn't seen that post (the one you linked). Maybe I did awhile back, but I didn't remember it. Rather than that kickstarter page, you should put it on your website. And it's not overkill, but it's also not completely honest.

I use the basic air stroke to play singles and for doubles I sneak in the extra hit as I lift the stick back up with the wrist. Personally I refer to this as 2-stroke Moeller. To play continuously with one hand (e.g. one-handed 16ths on the hi-hat) I just chain these doubles together.

It goes without saying that you are at 'god level' Aerodrums. And this 2-stroke Moeller is what I use on real hihats. But when you hit the hihats you can use geometry to make the butt of the stick move away from your palm so that the fingers can squeeze out another stroke. This is not possible with air drumming and the wrist has to do all the work.

It would probably be a lot more beneficial if we made a tutorial on these and only these ideas.

Sure. And if you do, please come out and say that there is no rebound.

By the way, in case people haven't seen the Kickstarter post, here is the link:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ae ... ts/3927293

I just read that page and with my newfound knowledge, I take issue with some of the wording:

Let's break down what "lack of rebound" means. Rebound refers to how the stick bounces back after hitting a surface. So, for there to be rebound there needs to be a surface. And by hitting the air, it would appear as though no surface is being hit.

You then go on to equate palm with surface. What conclusion do you expect the reader to draw from that?

This is the key to what makes air drumming feel good. In the same way that drummers are taught to grip the stick loosely so that it has the freedom to rotate around the fulcrum and rebound freely after striking a drum, the same is true of air drumming.

But there is no rebound with air drumming!

Note that the stick doesn't stop dead after hitting the palm - it will have a natural tendency to come back off it (like rebound!). This is because the equilibrium point of the see-saw is in between the palm and the fingers.

This is not true. The stick will stop dead. Something else (wrist, fulcrum) is moving the stick back upwards. The butt of the stick never comes off the palm unless you have changed the weight distribution of the stick. Not the Aerodrums supplied sticks anyway. I don't have any Vic Firth sticks other than a pair of Freestyle 5Bs which are a longer stick. Still with those to get a natural tendency to behave like "rebound", I have to have my fulcrum at the V. But even with such a ridiculous position on the stick, the "rebound" (ie. gravity) is slow. You must lift the stick with the wrist/fulcrum to go fast.

Please write something about air drumming technique that doesn't equivocate about the existence of rebound. Because there is none. And rebound is not needed.

[Richard]

There is some subtlety to the motion that I am doing when I perform double strokes. I didn't explain this in the Kickstarter post because at no point have I consciously practiced or executed these motions. I think it's just one of those muscle optimization things that your body does instinctively. I'm sorry I can't record a video right now to demonstrate this but I'll try to explain it in words.

It is true that with the basic air stroke there is no rebound. The stick will stop dead when it hits your palm. This is how I execute single strokes.

But now grip the stick between your index finger and thumb so that you can make it see-saw or wobble freely (i.e. not hitting the fingers or palm). When you stop wobbling, the stick should be about equidistant from the palm and little finger. In this pose the stick is stationary and is not in contact with the palm. From here, closing the fingers will make the stick snap into the palm. In other words, you can execute a hit without involving the wrist.

Now, from that same pose with the stick suspended a centimeter or so off the palm, if you make a stroke from the wrist the stick will collide with your palm and return to its original position - off of the palm. From here, closing the fingers will execute a second stroke. Both strokes result in the stick colliding with the palm and give you tactile feedback.

But the important thing is that in executing these two strokes the wrist only needs to come down once and doesn't need to lift the stick back up. Technically this isn't rebound but it has a similar effect of bringing the stick off of the hitting surface and into a position where a second stroke can be performed by closing the fingers. At times it is difficult to resist referring to this with the word "rebound" because I'm not sure what else to call it.

The main point here is this: when executing a double stroke, on the first hit, you want the stick to hit the palm but then end up off the palm. If instead it was buried in the palm then yes, you would need to lift the wrist again to free it.

I think the way I do this is closest to how I've seen a lot of drummers explain the "push-pull" technique where you throw the stick by opening up the hand and extending the thumb and index finger so that they're close to being straight. I do this in such a way that the butt of the stick ends up off the palm. Then the fingers can be closed to get the second stroke at the same time as the wrist is lifting the stick back up. Again, I didn't consciously practice this. It came about naturally from executing two basic air strokes in quick succession and just trying to make it faster and faster with practice.

[InTheWorks]

But now grip the stick between your index finger and thumb so that you can make it see-saw or wobble freely (i.e. not hitting the fingers or palm).

It's not intuitive to understand, but when you make it see-saw you're still "picking up" the stick. It happens entirely at the fulcrum. One of the fulcrum fingers is moving which creates a force offset from the pivot (a torque) and this allows this stick to rotate or move upward. Gravity takes care of the falling or you can shift the finger to the other side of the thumb which changes which side of the pivot the pressure is applied generating a torque in the opposite direction.

When you stop wobbling, the stick should be about equidistant from the palm and little finger. In this pose the stick is stationary and is not in contact with the palm. From here, closing the fingers will make the stick snap into the palm. In other words, you can execute a hit without involving the wrist.

Yes, but you are holding the stick in place with the fulcrum at that point. When the stick really is in motion (and I'll say more about that below), the stick will end up in that position and yes you can use the fingers without the wrist.

Now, from that same pose with the stick suspended a centimeter or so off the palm, if you make a stroke from the wrist the stick will collide with your palm and return to its original position - off of the palm. From here, closing the fingers will execute a second stroke. Both strokes result in the stick colliding with the palm and give you tactile feedback.

I'm having trouble with this. The stick will not return to it's original position all by itself. It doesn't rebound off of the palm and gravity doesn't help it fall. The collision gives you tactile feedback, true. However, that's all it gives you. There is no rebound.

But the important thing is that in executing these two strokes the wrist only needs to come down once and doesn't need to lift the stick back up.

If the wrist isn't moving, then the 'stick return' happens by the fulcrum fingers imparting a 'lifting' torque on the stick.

If the wrist is moving, it just needs to execute a small force perpendicular to the butt of the stick at the palm which will propel the tip of the stick upwards thanks to the mechanical advantage afforded by the distance between the palm and the fulcrum. It's very little force so you may not notice it. The wrist is rotating, not necessarily moving upwards, but it's still doing the work "lifting the stick".

To see what I'm talking about just hold the stick horizontal in your right hand with the butt of the stick in contact with the palm. Palm down as in german grip. Touch your fulcrum finger and thumb together under the stick. Only rest the stick on the fulcrum; do not squeeze. Keep the rest of the fingers out of the way. Now rotate your wrist clockwise (ie. supinate or uncross your forearm bones). If you rotate it slowly, the stick will stay in contact with your palm. As you speed up that rotation you'll see the butt of the stick come off the palm. If you make the motion a quick jerk, the wrist doesn't move much for an appreciable amount of stick rotation.

In french grip, there is a different action. The thumb has to apply a small amount of force behind the index finger. This can happen deliberately or it can happen as the geometry at the fulcrum changes with ulnar deviation of the wrist.

And to be quite honest, I believe that there's probably a different combination of both wrist and fulcrum "action" in each of the air drum strokes. As a result it's hard to see what really is happening.

Technically this isn't rebound but it has a similar effect of bringing the stick off of the hitting surface and into a position where a second stroke can be performed by closing the fingers. At times it is difficult to resist referring to this with the word "rebound" because I'm not sure what else to call it.

You make a good point in that the action performs the rebound function, but it's not rebound. We could use a technical term like "restoring torque", but it doesn't roll off the tongue that well and less technical people won't understand it. I still think it's incorrect to call it rebound.

I think it would be fine to be upfront saying that "There is no rebound from the palm", but also that we can "create the effect of rebound" and then continue to use "rebound effect". But I think it's crucial to separate the collision of the palm with the "rebound effect". The "rebound effect" does not require collision with the palm. Though it may require contact with the palm.

The main point here is this: when executing a double stroke, on the first hit, you want the stick to hit the palm but then end up off the palm. If instead it was buried in the palm then yes, you would need to lift the wrist again to free it.

I agree with the approach, but I disagree with the mechanics involved. Either the wrist or the fulcrum (perhaps both) is providing the "restoring torque". The stick can't magically rebound off the palm because of physics.

I think the way I do this is closest to how I've seen a lot of drummers explain the "push-pull" technique where you throw the stick by opening up the hand and extending the thumb and index finger so that they're close to being straight. I do this in such a way that the butt of the stick ends up off the palm. Then the fingers can be closed to get the second stroke at the same time as the wrist is lifting the stick back up.

Have a look at the moving gifs on that kickstarter update and really pay attention to what the fulcrum and wrist are doing. Especially on that drop-catch animation. You can see that the thumb is moving backwards with respect to the index finger which allows for a torque to rotate the stick. The resolution isn't good enough to tell, but if the area under the thumb nail goes white, we can tell for sure that the thumb is putting some pressure on the stick.

Whether this is deliberately applied or a result of geometry changes in the hand should be understood to teach others. I don't suppose you have high resolution videos of the gifs on that kickstarter update page?

Again, I didn't consciously practice this. It came about naturally from executing two basic air strokes in quick succession and just trying to make it faster and faster with practice.

People who have a natural talent don't often understand the underlying physics. This is why those who excel at something can't always teach it well. I don't mean to disrespect here. Not all of us (especially me) will just 'get it' with extra practice. I need to understand how it works.

[Wolfgang]

Just came back from vacation and saw your message. This is a long discussion you had with Richard, I had a hard time going through and even by using Google translate I haven’t understood everything.

There is no rebound. None at all.

But there is no rebound with air drumming!

Wow, you are tough. Yes there is, but you have to create it on your own. I don’t know if you’ve seen my last video practicing a Drumeo pad exercise, but I assure you, every stroke I do in this exercise bounces back alone, my wrist is just following. And for the doubles in this video I’m using open/close technique by doing the first stroke with an open hand, waiting for the stick to bounce back and doing the second by closing my hand and bringing it back to the first position. And this works, it’s just the grip and the striking technique. Richard’s technique is more based on finger technique wiles mine on open wrist strokes, but we are using both the same surface, our palms.

My-Air-Rebound-Stroke.gif (154.82 KiB) Viewed 13690 times

(Sorry, but I’m not allowed to post bigger gifs on this forum)

With my technique I’m able to let bounce my Aerodrums sticks up to full-stroke height, just in my hands, I can use open/close and Moeller technique, I have no need for an extra practice pad.

[InTheWorks]

There is no rebound. None at all.

But there is no rebound with air drumming!

Wow, you are tough. Yes there is, but you have to create it on your own.

The effect you are talking about is not rebound. It can't be. Calling it rebound is like calling jumping anti-gravity.

I assure you, every stroke I do in this exercise bounces back alone, my wrist is just following.

I assure you, this is not the case. There are technical reasons for this and I don't know how well they will come across through google translate.

There are three very important discoveries that we call Newton's laws of motion:

1. A body remains at rest unless acted upon by a force.
2. The net force on a body is equal to the body's acceleration multiplied by its mass.
3. If two bodies exert forces on each other, these forces have the same magnitude but opposite directions.

The important ones for this discussion are 1 and 3. Very roughly, to change the direction of the stick we need an external force. Since the drum stick doesn't have any means of creating these forces (ie. no rocket engines) the forces have to come from somewhere else.

When a drumstick hits a practice pad, the force that changes the direction of the stick comes from the surface acting like a spring. A restoring force pushes back on the tip of the stick. This spring action is what we call rebound. With air drumming that force is absent. It doesn't come from the palm.

So when you say the stick "bounces back alone", that's like saying the stick has rocket engines. I think we can agree that it doesn't.

I've tried to keep that discussion simplified. There are many other factors at play, like elasticity of the pad and the stick, but they are complicated and don't help understand what's going on.

we are using both the same surface, our palms.

Take a stick in your right hand. Hold it by the tip end so that you strike with the butt end. Now hit palm of your left hand. Notice that if your palm is taught, as in you've opened your hand flat, you can get a bounce. However, if you relax your fingers and repeat the same exercise, there will be zero bounce.

The palm, when used for air drumming, offers no rebound.

With my technique I’m able to let bounce my Aerodrums sticks up to full-stroke height, just in my hands, I can use open/close and Moeller technique, I have no need for an extra practice pad.

I wish I could post a simple video here to show that you don't need rebound to do exactly as you say. The mechanism by which the drumstick 'bounces' up to full-stroke height is that your wrist and/or fulcrum rotates the stick. What else can it be?

[Wolfgang]

The effect you are talking about is not rebound. It can't be. Calling it rebound is like calling jumping anti-gravity.

You can call it what you want, I say my sticks are bouncing in my hands. And much better than if I would use a pillow or my legs. With all your words you don't want me to deny what I feel in my hands, or?

I said exactly “Yes there is (a rebound), but you have to create it on your own”. Sure, the air-rebound doesn’t come only from the palm, it’s some technique you need to learn, some people call this “artificial rebound” normally used for playing on low rebound surfaces. There are some videos on YouTube. I’ve developed a series of exercises to learn this with air-drumming.

Don't be too sectarian, or there is a risk of overlooking things. All the time you spend trying to prove you're right would be better spent figuring out how to do it right.

[InTheWorks]

All the time you spend trying to prove you're right would be better spent figuring out how to do it right.

This is not about being right. It's about being precise. How do you figure out how to do it correctly without precise instructions? Without understanding the underlying mechanics?

Personally, I don't care what you call it. And I don't mean that with disrespect. You obviously are naturally good at it.

I care about what it should be properly called. As I mentioned before, not everyone naturally "gets it". Calling it rebound when it's not only confuses people who are looking for rebound and wondering why there isn't any.

Here's what I would say:

The rebound effect is caused entirely by forces applied by the hand. This can be finger motion at the fulcrum or wrist rotation at the palm. And a combination of both depending on the technique. There is no rebound as in the traditional sense of stick bounce.

That's a far better description than:

The stick rebounds all by itself after hitting the palm.

[Richard]

If the wrist is moving, it just needs to execute a small force perpendicular to the butt of the stick at the palm which will propel the tip of the stick upwards thanks to the mechanical advantage afforded by the distance between the palm and the fulcrum. It's very little force so you may not notice it. The wrist is rotating, not necessarily moving upwards, but it's still doing the work "lifting the stick".

So here is my current best guess as to how I execute a double stroke. I mentioned before that I developed the technique by trying to get faster playing two consecutive single strokes in the air, obviously lifting the wrist each time. So I concede that you're probably right that the wrist is lifting the stick up to execute the second stroke and you're right that it requires very little effort. In fact, when the double stroke is played fast enough, the wrist bounces back up after you try to bring your fast moving hand to a stop. In that sense the motion feels like a single downward wrist motion, instead of a down-up-down motion, even though that's what's happening.

As for using the fulcrum fingers to lift the stick, I feel like I can execute doubles perfectly fine without any conscious movement of these fingers. But in practice I may well be using the index finger/thumb to help impart torque to the stick. When I have a chance I will record some high frame rate videos of this to try to understand it better.